So I'm going through the 1st age book and after comparing natural weapons and armor to primitive and common equivalents it looks like there is 0 reason to ever take common equipment and even less so primitive equipment. If a primitive melee weapon is 2pts per squad and I cant use coordinated attack of defense enhancements, why would I not just give every model in my army claws/bite/ect 0 that uses the users strength as a base that also has a properties 0 for 0 points? Same with a basic weapon, its 2pts for a 1h weapon with no upside but instead just use a natural weapon for 0 points. 4pts for a two-handed weapon? Well that's just Bite 1 for 1 point AND If I look at the base stats, since Bite X has 0 properties then I can go to Bite 4 for 4 points and still be at properties 0. Now the example in the book shows that anything above 0 is +1 properties so if that's the case then all natural weapons and armor need to updated to properties-X and everything with a 1 properties needs to be x+1 But that still makes common items worthless. Common armor? 4pts-1 properties-1 armor VS Natural Armor 1pt-1 properties-1 armor Say I use a level 3 class and put claws 0 on it, well at level 3 I get 3 properties so I can just put bone 3 on all the claws 0 and now I have 3 attacks that do 4 damage each. If I get natural armor and weapons through traits I'm assuming that it doesn't count against the properties I have, otherwise something like the troglodyte's thick hide at 3 points is absolutely WORTHLESS because I can just buy natural armor at 1point instead of 3. In the insect kingdom for their class options you can pay 10 points to add +1 to a morph, once again I am assuming that doesn't count towards your properties because that is a useless upgrade otherwise (since you can already do that for 0 points). Upgrading to advanced melee weapons and armor? Special arms? Why? If an advanced melee weapon is 8 points +2 from the common weapon that's 10 points for 1+ properties vs Claws 1 which is 1+ properties for 1 point. Now sure, your advanced melee weapon has more options for for less properties but if its a 2h weapon your in the same boat as natural weapons for even MORE points and properties. Martial Weapon is 5+2pts for 1+ properties? See again natural weapons. Now I don't know about ranged because I prefer my armies to melee based with some shooting support but if X=0 then currently all the ranged natural weapons are 0 points vs 4 for bows. I'm guessing that is also a typo because those natural ranged weapons seem a little too good for 0 points and no where does it say what X is, unlike the melee weapons. Its also far far easier to add bonuses to natural weapons via Phenotypic Morphs vs Weapons. Phenotypic Morphs are free of requirements other then additional properties where weapons need you take specific traits to unlock the potential to modify them and that could cost more points. Unless there is some sort of restriction that I am not seeing in the book, there is never a reason to take any weapon or armor outside of Natural equivalents due the severe restrictions and point costs. Even if Natural Equipment becomes properties=X or X+1 it still outshines standard equipment because you can just take the natural piece at 0 and use very similar buffs from morphs on them, where to use something like chainmail you need to use up a humanoid trait just to take a 10 point medium armor. Ironically, shields might be worth it because they don't seem to count as armor or weapons. TL;DR-Standard equipment costs too many points and has too many restrictions to ever be worth bringing over natural equipment OR natural equipment is to easy to get and modify and far to cheap in points. Also, typo? Stingers: Enhancement- Off.Com.Sit.X ? What is that?
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"everything costs traits, there's no way to get natural weapons/armor + morphs for no costs. unless there's a trait that reduces the cost like abundant resources and mineral riches and primitive warfare." Except the book says under Natural Weapon/Defenses paragraph (pg 124): "The point costs for natural weapons and defenses is simply added to the point cost of the models." Then the example on page 125: "Example: Claws, by default would be Claws 0, granting no additional bonus to Martial but allowing the natural weapon to be used in combat without penalties for not having a weapon." THEN if we look at Claws on page 126: Claws Xpts. Properties-0 So if Claws cost Xpts, should I not be able to buy them like a common weapon at 0 properties? Could I not buy Claws 2 at 2pts for 0 properties (according to the book stats)? NOTHING in this section says I require a trait to pick up natural weapons/defenses. Even on page 113 under types of arms and armor: "Special - Only available through traits and abilities Advanced - Only available through traits and abilities Imbued-Only available through powers" Natural Armor and defenses do not fall under any of these categories. Could you also show me where I can find the wording that prevents me from taking phenotypic morphs without a trait? Because under the wording on page 127: "Phenotypic Morphs or Morphs are added to natural weapons and defenses allowing them to be customized and unique. Each morph X adds to the properties of the natural weapons and armor, limiting the number of advancements that can be added. Natural Weapons and Defenses are only allowed the morphs listed under each weapon or defense." Now I didn't type out the whole part but based off that wording, and nothing saying otherwise, I can take Phenotypic morphs without any point cost. Here's the catch though, everything you said I 100% agree with. The problem? The book disagrees with us based off its wording. I did not go looking for this set up either, it was midnight last night after a 7 hour game of Battletech and, after double checking today before making such a long post, I just accidentally stumble upon the wrongness of the wording allowing what sounds like an exploit. All of my questions can resolved with these things it seems like: -All Natural weapons/armor need to be changed to properties X instead of 0 or X+1. -All Natural weapons/armor under the section need to lose their points cost in that area since those points should already be enrolled in the trait required. -Under types of weapons and equipment, it should have another section saying "Natural - Only through Traits and Abilities" -Under Phenotypic Morph it needs to have something saying only allowed to be take via traits or abilities.
biggest upside to natural weapons is you could add Claws 4 to your faction and your entire faction would have Claws 1-4 depending on the class max properties
lvl1- claws 1
lvl2- claws 2
lvl3-claws 3
lvl 4 claws 4
lvl 5 claws 4 (because thats the max your faction had)
now you could increase this via traits or class options.
Also, typo? Stingers: Enhancement- Off.Com.Sit.X ? What is that?
Offensive combat situation X
what it means,
if you add X to stingers your offensive combat situation increases by X while using stingers
so stinger 1 would add 1 to the off, com, sit and increase the properties of stingers by 1
so only class with properties 1 could use.
there is a lot here and I think you missed some info when trying to figure stuff out. and I think your miss understanding how properties work. class properties are an max number any given armory/natural/power a model can take not give properties to.
so a lvl 1 human could take a common weapon 0properties and add advanced weapon 1 to it cause the total properties would add up to 1.
where a martial axe costs 1 property and adding advanced weapon to it would increase by 1 so it would be above the 1 property max a class lvl 1 human could have.
I agree with the coordinated attacks natural weapons with no X should be counted as primitive. how ever I don't see any way of getting a natural attack with out some point cost associated with it, you cant just give a natural weapon to a model that doesn't already have access to it there's always some trait associated with it.
lowest point cost I saw was 3 for claws 1 for natural weapon, which would have 1 property Natural armor is the same the lowest you could get the trait that I see is 3pts and that give natural armor 1 which equals 1 property.
same with morphs all morphs are connected to a trait and a point cost and a properties increase,
so bite 1 crushing 1 would have a properties of 2, 1 for the increase enhancement 1 strength and 1 for the crushing morph. check page 123. the requirements of Phenotypic Morph is you need to select it via traits you dont just get to add it. (check out insecks for an easier visual on how it looks)
everything costs traits, there's no way to get natural weapons/armor + morphs for no costs. unless there's a trait that reduces the cost like abundant resources and mineral riches and primitive warfare.
insects might have something for their natural weapons that reduce costs.